LOTL Lounge S8E4 - When Queer Sex Talk Feels Too Much

S1E4: Show Notes

Episode Summary

Episode 4 of The LOTL Lounge is packed with brilliant voices and big stories. This week features comedy from the Tuckshop Ladies, an interview with award-winning non-binary author Kris Kneen, an NRLW wrap with Jo Barrett, a deep dive into the history of lesbian and bisexual women's dynamics with Amber Loomis, music from Theia and Fvneral!, a powerful conversation with formerly incarcerated queer Aboriginal writer Tabitha Lean, a Drag King Corner update from Nash Hill, and a cabaret love letter to the '90s with Cherry Charleston.

Segments & Timestamps

Tuckshop Ladies — Talking About Sex (~1:36)
Rosie Burgess and Sam Lowes (the Tuckshop Ladies) return with a hilarious segment about the discomfort of talking about sex. 

Topics include:

• The expectation that queer people should be open about sex
• The L Word and lesbian representation on television

Author Kris Kneen - Rite of Spring (~13:59)
Award-winning non-binary author Kris Kneen (formerly Krissy Kneen) joins the show to discuss:

• Their transition to a non-binary identity and name change
• Their new book Rite of Spring, a story about a marine biologist on a remote Tasmanian island, exploring themes of gender transition, menopause, and life change
• The queer community's response to their writing, including readers who realised they were trans through Kris's first book Affection
• Their fascination with writing about sexuality in fat bodies
• Exclusive excerpt from Rite of Spring read by the author (~23:20)

BONUS EPISODE: Read the article and listen to the full episode here

Music Track by Theia - BALDH3AD! (~27:37)
A track that has become a full-blown protest anthem, nominated for Single of the Year at the 2025 Aotearoa Music Awards and landing at #178 on Rolling Stone Australia's top 250 Australian/New Zealand songs of the 21st century. A new live version has just been released. Follow LOTL Lounge's queer artist playlists on Spotify and SoundCloud.

League from the Lounge with Jo Barrett (~28:27)
Jo Barrett's NRLW Wrap covering rounds 6 and 7:

• Indigenous Round - celebration of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture, jersey design, boot painting, and recognition of historic Indigenous women players (Katrina Fanning, Yvonne O'Neill, Carol Jarrett, Tracey Thompson, Theresa Anderson, Kylie Pennell, Katasha Gale)
• Three things noticed lately:

1. Impact of injury on team performance (Cronulla Sharks hit hard, losing Shontae Kiri-Ratu)
2. Every team has now had at least one win; Titans move to second; Roosters stamp authority with big win over Broncos
3. The tribute to Yasmin Meeks' mother — both the Knights and Warriors came together in an emotional opening ceremony

• Player focus: Jocelyn Kelliher (Roosters) - first player to reach 300 individual points in the NRLW
• Looking ahead: Broncos vs Titans clash with finals implications

Amber Loomis - Lesbians & Bisexual Women: A History (~35:43)
Amber Loomis, a trans genderqueer bi+ advocate and community researcher, explores the longstanding friction between lesbians and bisexual women:

• Founding the Sydney Bi+ Network
• Jill Johnston and the 1971 Dialogue on Women's Liberation in New York — a flashpoint for lesbian separatism
• Johnston's 1973 book Lesbian Nation and its call for a complete break with men
• How lesbian separatism shaped the exclusion of bisexual women from queer spaces
• Tensions in the 1990s — archival evidence from Lesbians on the Loose and feminist newspapers
• Dating app exclusion and modern-day impacts on bi+ mental health

BONUS EPISODE: Read the article and listen to the full episode here

Music Spotlight: Fvneral! - Hate U (~53:19)
Queer supergroup Fvneral! features their new EP Chosen Family, led by trans non-binary songwriter Tay Blunt. 

Interview topics include:

• The concept of chosen family in queer culture
• The track "Hate U" - about recognising coercive control and reclaiming power

BONUS EPISODE: Read the article and listen to the full episode here

Tabitha Lean - Queer Women Leaving Prison (~59:34)
Tabitha Lean, a queer Aboriginal woman, formerly incarcerated, writer and advocate with Sisters Inside, shares her powerful story:

• The contrast between coming out as queer (celebrated) vs. coming home from prison (stigmatised)
• The work of Sisters Inside and CEO Debbie Kilroy
• A recent Adelaide court case where a prison officer was found guilty of sexual violence against women prisoners - and the resounding silence from feminist organisations
• The impact of shows like Wentworth and Orange Is the New Black
• Aboriginal women as the fastest-growing prison cohort in Australia

BONUS EPISODE: Read the article and listen to the full episode here

Drag King Corner with Nash Hill (~1:15:06)
A quick call with Nash Hill, who writes the biweekly Drag King Corner column on lotl.com:

• Upcoming interview with iconic drag king Sexy Galaxy
• Sexy Galaxy's journey from shyness to the stage

Read the column at lotl.com

Cherry Charleston — Love Letter to the '90s (~1:18:52)
Cabaret performer Cherry Charleston discusses her show Love Letter to the '90s:

• Origin story: started as a 10-minute act at an alternative queer performer competition
• Expanded into a full cabaret show with a group of seven backup singers
• Coming out in the '90s - legal discrimination, no couples rights, no IVF access
• k.d. lang's 1993 coming out and the iconic Vanity Fair photoshoot with Cindy Crawford
• The '90s lesbian "uniform" - short hair, jeans, vest, red lipstick
• Show details: August 22, Melbourne

Followed by Cherry's recorded Love Letter to the '90s — a personal, moving account of queer life in 1990s Melbourne

Next Episode Preview (S1E5)

• Zoe Terakes - author and actor, known as Max from Wentworth
• Mandahala Rose - known as E from the film All About E, joining from New York
• The Tuckshop Ladies return, and more queer music and stories

Links & Resources

Seg 1: Tuckshop Ladies
Seg 2: Kris Kneen and Byron Bay Writers Festival
Seg 3: Music Track by Theia - BALDH3AD!
Seg 6: Music Spotlight: Fvneral! - Hate U
Seg 7:Tabitha Lean - Queer Women Leaving Prison and Sisters Inside
Seg 9: Cherry Charleston — Love Letter to the '90s

Feedback & Participation:

Email feedback: podcast@lotl.com

Send a voice message: click here

Are you a lesbian or queer musician? Submit your track for the playlist and show!

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Where to Find Us

- Website: lotl.com

- Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube: @LOTLMagazine

- Spotify/SoundCloud: The LOTL Lounge Playlist

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Thanks for listening to the LOTL Lounge - where your story shines.

Transcript

Welcome To The Lottl Lounge

Speaker 9 0:13

This is our space, this is our time.

Speaker 1 0:15

Hello to the LOTL lounge where we always And welcome back to the Lotl Lounge, your audio magazine for lesbians and queer culture, community and conversation. I am Silke, and episode four is stacked with brilliant voices and big stories. We will hear from Jo Barrett, who will give us an update on the NRLW. The wins, the surprises, and the players lighting up the field this week will spin fresh tracks from artists across Australia and New Zealand, showcasing the sounds shaping our community right now. Later, I sit down with Amber Loomis to explore the relationship between lesbians and bisexual women, the history, the politics, and the cultural shifts dating back to the early 1970s. Then I'm joined by award-winning author, Kris Kneen, who shares insight into the latest book, plus an exclusive excerpt, and we'll hear from Tabitha Leen, an indigenous writer and activist whose work is grounded in lived experience and resistance. Tabitha speaks about queer women leaving prison and a stark lack of support from the proto-queer community. Now let's kick off with the talk shop ladies, the duo who never fail to bring joy.

Why Sex Talk Can Feel Hard

Speaker 6 1:35

G'day everybody. I'm Rosie Burgess. I'm Sam Lowe's and we are the Tuck Shop Ladies. Hey Sam.

Speaker 5 1:44

Yes, Rosie. I thought today we should talk about sex. You want to talk about sex?

Speaker 6 1:51

No. I really don't want to talk about sex. And I want to talk about the fact that I don't want to talk about sex. Okay. Because I makes you uncomf on some in some instances, on some levels, it makes me uncomf. Let me give you uh a bit. Don't you feel like don't you just before you give me the sitch situation, because I want to hear that. Yeah. But don't you feel like like as you know, queer people as lesbians, we're supposed to want to talk about sex? Like it's cool to want to talk about sex.

Speaker 5 2:22

Yeah. A lot of a lot of people do love to talk about sex, and maybe they do because you know, a lot of people grew up a little bit sort of stifled and a little bit sort of closeted or whatever. I can't remember. And then all of a sudden Yeah, I know, but but and then come on out with everything, you know?

Speaker 6 2:41

Right. So the like um, you know, now that I'm not being stifled and I'm not being like, I'm not in this environment where we're too prudish to talk about sex. Now I can talk about it all the time.

Speaker 5 2:54

Yes. It's sort of like floodgates are open. That definitely is not how I feel. Right. So give me the situation. Okay, I'll give you a situation. Um You're at the pub. Yeah. You're with your mates. Well, already you've lost me. Okay.

Speaker 6 3:10

Because I really pub don't know mates that I've only got two friends. But okay. Um two friends that you have catching up on Zoom. Yeah, and then I'm at a cafe. Okay. Yeah, I'm at a cafe. It's also not really having a cup of tea. I know. I could I could sometimes I go to the cafe.

Speaker 5 3:31

Okay, and your best friend. Yes. Right? Um, just let's just say um hypothetically, they love talking about sex. Right? Hypothetically. Hypothetically. Yeah. Your best friend loves talking about sex. And let's just say she just starts talking about it. And let's say she's straight. Yeah. Right? Um, and she just really gets into it and starts going into detail. Right. And what will I do? Well, what uncomfortable. Uncomfortable.

Speaker 6 4:03

But what do how what how do you get out of it? I say, let's so, and talking about something else. No, but you know what I was thinking about? So, yeah, I would try and change the topic. I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear details about other people's sex life. I don't want to talk about details of my sex life, and I don't want to watch it either. And I think that was something that when the L word first came out, do you remember when the L word first came out? Yeah. The lesbian show.

Speaker 5 4:29

Yeah, not the not the levitating world. Right. But now the magic show.

Speaker 6 4:34

They did it once and then they did it twice, right? Yeah. And the thing was, it was all like it was amazing because finally there was a TV show about lesbians. Yeah. And I was like so torn because I really wanted to see lesbians on TV. Yeah. I don't know if I'd ever seen a lesbian on TV before that. Yeah, you had. Ellen. Rosie O'Donnell. Is she a lesbian? I don't know. I'm is she the one that plays in the baseball movie with Madonna? Sure is. Where would I have seen her? Like just on TV with Madonna? Um, on the Rosie O'Donnell show. Okay, definitely never saw that. Okay. Nah, didn't see that either. So I I guess um when the L-word came out, it was like the first kind of real time of like just overt lesbianism. Yeah. And and I was so like, oh, I love this, and I'm so uncomfortable.

Speaker 5 5:28

Yeah, right. Because it was it was very overt.

Speaker 6 5:30

It was very sexy, very sexual. And I I I didn't really want to, I never really want to see people. I don't want to watch people having sex. Do you like a nice uh a good like lesbian kiss on TV?

Speaker 5 5:42

I thought you were gonna go, do you like a nice bit of sex?

Speaker 6 5:46

We've just met, so do you like uh the sex? Do you like the sex? I like I don't mind a lesbian kiss. You better say I like the sex. I like I like the sex. I like a lesbian kiss. Yeah. I think that's lovely. I really like that. Yeah.

Speaker 5 5:58

And ro you like the romance.

Speaker 6 6:00

I like I love the romance. But I don't want to watch anyone have sex. Straight people, gay men, lesbian ladies. I don't want to anyone have sex. It's just got to be people you know. I don't want to watch people I know. Yeah. Okay. I don't want to watch me have sex.

Speaker 5 6:20

Oh, well, I better erase those tapes.

Speaker 6 6:25

Erase erase, erase, erase ceiling. I feel like it's a very uncool position to take, right? To go because I yeah, so I was very pleased that the L word came out. I was very pleased that it came out again. Yep. Second time round. Yeah. But I still felt like I didn't want to have to watch them have sex. How do you feel about it?

Speaker 5 6:46

Yeah, I I don't mind it. I don't mind a good a good little bunk on TV. Really?

Speaker 6 6:51

Yeah. However Well, you don't mind talking about sex either. You quite like talking about sex.

Speaker 5 6:56

Yeah, but I'm not a go out for a cup of tea at the cafe and then start talking about sex.

Speaker 6 7:05

Well, I But I'm happy to You're not a go out for a cup of tea at a cafe full stop.

Speaker 5 7:10

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 7:10

You'd be more of a go to a bar and not anymore. You like go to a pub with friends. Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't mind a social six. Let me give you the scene. You're at the bar, you're at the pub, table of friends. The football's on. Oh, hello. Everybody's happy. And everyone on the field starts having sex. And someone starts talking about sex. The sex they've been having.

Speaker 5 7:37

Yeah, don't mind. How you feel. It's fine. Really?

Speaker 6 7:40

Yeah.

Speaker 5 7:41

Why? Um it's interesting. It's also something it's like um it's like say someone else. I I don't mind um using a jigsaw, right? Uh or building something at home. If someone else starts talking about building-a jigsaw. Like you do a jigsaw, you don't use a jigsaw. No, a tool a tool. That's a jigsaw. It's also, oh, we don't have time for this. Oh, like a saw a saw. Yep. Right. Stay with me with the analogy. Okay. So if someone starts talking about something that I also do, yeah, I'll talk about it.

Speaker 6 8:12

Oh, right. As in like someone says, I just got this new jigsaw. Yeah. And you go, Oh. Yeah, me too. What brand did you get? And so someone goes, Ah yeah, I just did this thing in sex. And you'll go, Oh yeah. Oh yeah, me too. Yeah, don't mind. Do you tell do you ch chime in? I'd prefer to talk about sex than politics for sure.

Speaker 5 8:34

But um, can I just clarify? Yeah. Yeah, I know you. Do I chime in and talk about my sex? Yeah. Nah, not in detail. Right. Not in front, not right now in front of you. So so so sometimes you'll be talking about No, you can you could ring any of my friends and then you can ask them and say, hey, how detail does Sam go into your sex life? Shit. They'll they'll I better text them now.

Speaker 6 8:59

But then is that yeah is that fair though, if they're talking about their sex and you don't talk about yours?

Speaker 5 9:06

Yeah, totally. Because I'll I'll skirt around. Right, so I won't but I won't go into detail. No, it's not not my vibe. Right. Yeah for sure. It's but it doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. No. But my mum and dad has sex. They talked about their sex all the no, they we grew up, they were very, very comfortable with being naked, comfortable with talking to us about stuff, but not you know, not it wasn't like dinner time conversation was like, so just gonna pop this on for all of us to watch. That's a nice casserole, let's talk about sex. Yeah, yeah. Um, so I think that being comfortable in my own skin and comfortable in my with my body and comfortable in that kind of area, I think that makes me sort of a little bit more comfortable in maybe I don't know.

Speaker 6 9:55

In talking about sex, yeah, maybe. You know, it's interesting because like I like you said, I really love the lesbian romance. Oh, you love it. I love it. Like, you know, just to see that playing out, uh reading the lesbian romance books. Writing it. Writing the lesbian romance books got got into quite a pickle.

Speaker 5 10:15

Do you have some books out that are lesbian romance, Rosie? I do. How would you how would you find those? Don't know. I got into Royal Burgess.

Speaker 6 10:23

I got into quite a pickle though with the editor for my books. Each time this happened, I tried to pull the curtains when my characters got down and dirty. We're having sex. Yeah. And maybe it's just like when I was a kid, I used to steal my grandma's um Mills and Boon books.

The L Word And On-Screen Intimacy

Speaker 6 10:45

What a time to pause. Yeah, I used to steal my grandma's mills and boon books. Yeah. And um, they were very sexual. But it was all heterosexual sex.

Speaker 5 11:00

You should start booking what's called Millie and Bonnie books.

Speaker 6 11:03

Millie and Bonnie.

Speaker 5 11:05

I love it. Lesbian romance.

Speaker 6 11:07

Although Mills and Boone, they're not exactly I don't even know what that like, but anyway, so I think maybe I grew up with this sense that like people describe heterosexual sex all the time and it's all everywhere, and you see it on TV all the time. And then when it came to like describing lesbian sex in my book, I was like, Run away, run away. Oh my god, how am I gonna do that?

Speaker 5 11:35

And then so you you've sort of to use uh to coin a phrase, you fleshed it out a little. Did then then they came back and said, nah, we need more.

Speaker 6 11:45

Yeah, well, the first time they came back and they were like, You can't you can't just bully gurns. And I was like, Are you sure? Um, and they were like, No, no, no, yeah. Like it's uh and it's a fine line when you're writing like a romance novel.

Speaker 5 11:59

Yeah, because you're not you're not writing a sexy book.

Speaker 6 12:01

I'm not writing fifty shades of grey. Although I haven't read that, but I think it's quite sexy. I only got up to 40. Right. Anyway, so I was yeah. So then I was like, oh my god. So I had to actually like write descriptions of sex. Yeah. It was very challenging.

Speaker 5 12:21

Yeah, but it's tastefully done. I've read it.

Speaker 6 12:24

Is it? Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah, it's very good. Oh, I'm so glad.

Speaker 5 12:27

The books are good, very, very good.

Speaker 6 12:30

Very nice. So thank you for for that. But um yeah, I just thought that was, you know. Why do you think you're uncomfortable? What uh like talking about sex? Yeah.

Speaker 5 12:40

Oh, it just feels like a a private thing, I think. Yeah. So you wouldn't the same thing as you wouldn't just start describing your poo. You know what I mean? That's uncomfortable too.

Speaker 6 12:52

Yeah, yeah. Uh you know, I didn't uh yeah, there's a lot.

Speaker 5 12:56

So there's there's a private line for you.

Speaker 6 12:58

Yeah, there's a private line for me. Okay, fair. Yeah. But like I understand that um I think like uh but the other part of me goes, I'm so glad there was lesbian sex on the TV. Yeah, yeah. And you know, if if lesbian characters are kissing, yes, good. I want I want everyone to see that. But I just wish it wasn't sex. I think that's it for us today. What do you reckon? Gosh, you let's talk about sex, baby.

Kris Kneen On Writing Desire

Speaker 1 13:34

Let's talk about our next guest Kris Kneen, the award-winning non-binary writer, known for the fearless, intimate storytelling and the way that blurred boundaries between memoir, fiction, and desire. Kris has a brand new book out, Ride of Spring, and we are diving into the themes behind it, the creative process, and what it means to write queer stories that push back against the ordinary. And stay with us because at the end of our conversation you will hear an exclusive expert from Ride of Spring. Welcome to Lotl Lounge, Kris. Good, it's nice to be here. You are an award-winning author of fiction, non-fiction, poetry, scripts for documentaries, movies. To write for Chrissy Kneen, and you're now writing under Kris Kneen. You moved into a new identity of being non-binary. Tell us a little bit about this shift.

Speaker 14 14:30

It was a bit tricky to make the decision whether to change my name at all because I wanted people to understand that I was identifying as non-binary now. And of course, that name change does indicate that and makes it really clear that I'm non-binary because she was such a feminized version of my name. But of course, everything that I've written is attached to the name Chrissy's. It was a big decision to work out whether those things would follow me because I was proud of those books and I still want to own my history as a writer. But I just made the leap and decided it was more important to me to be clearer about my identity than to take the name with me. Some of my friends still call me Chrissy. It's not a, I don't think that it's actually a gendered thing at all to call someone. I think you could be a man and be called Chrissy, that would be fine. But I think it's just for me, it was just a line in the sand to say living my life as a non-binary person, and I need something to mark that.

Speaker 1 15:28

It's not only about the big step of making a decision on a new identity, but also this is your business.

Speaker 14 15:36

It's a massive thing to change at this point in my life. It's easier if I were 20 or under 30. That would be an easier kind of shift. It's the sort of thing that when I actually realized that I was not non-binary, I realize that I have always been non-binary. The way I've chafed against the world has been a part of that gender identity.

Speaker 1 15:57

Your current book, The Ride of Spring. Yeah. So if you can tell the audience what sparked this book off, and we will also play an excerpt that you have recorded for us.

Speaker 14 16:10

Yeah, it's uh it's a book about a woman who goes to an island off the coast of Tasmania, very remote island, with her husband, and they are there as caretakers for six months on the island. No one will be there with them, it's just them. They take all their food for the entire six months. She's a biologist, a marine biologist, and she's had an accident diving, and so she's no longer allowed to go under the water. And for her, that was her whole life. That was her happy place where she felt at home was under the water. And so she's been cut off from her life and her work. And also Richard, her husband, has had an affair just before they leave for the island, and so they want to repair that relationship too. And they think that going away together alone for that six months will be a time that they can repair both her health and their relationship. And so it's it seems like it could be an idyllic way to sort her life out. But of course, being alone with someone on an island, firstly, is quite challenging. But she realizes that she might not be on this island with just one other person because she keeps seeing somebody else on the island. She's not sure if it's a part of her neurological damage that she's had from this diving accident or whether it's actually somebody there that shouldn't be there, and whether that person will be a threat. And so there's this kind of unsettling feeling that she's being watched the whole time. And she starts to hear this weird keening sound that comes to her in the night, and it kind of fills her up with this almost erotic sensation. He doesn't hear it. It's only her that hears it.

Speaker 1 17:53

Is that mainly about your identity change? Or you mentioned before you're 57, someone's like menopause. Yes, certainly.

Speaker 14 18:02

Absolutely. And so, of course, it's not just a book about trans transition in gender, it's a book about transition in life. And so many people at an older age, particularly, are going through a life transition. And that's that could be menopause, that could be other hormonal changes.

Speaker 1 18:18

The excerpt that you read for us that I will play later is an erotic excerpt. Your your background is also erotic writing. Are you known to always interview erotic writing with your book?

Speaker 14 18:32

Sexuality is something that fascinates me and always has fascinated me. And so I have been writing about sexuality since the beginning. I think that it's it's such a big part of my life and such a big part of many people I know, their lives, and yet we don't discuss it in an open way. So I've always been really interested in what is sexuality like for somebody who's in, you know, I'm in a fat body, so someone in a fat body, how does that kind of how does sexuality affect or impact their relationship with the world in that body that they're in? Has the queer community responded to your writings? I've always identified as queer ever since I was a kid. And so I've never felt a part of the straight community. And it's really interesting that since coming out as non-binary, that I've actually had a whole lot of young trans people come up to me and say that my first book, Affection, which was a memoir, was the book that made them realize they were trans. I was like, it would have been fantastic if someone had told me that I was trans. I would have been very open to it, but I had no idea. I saw the world as binary. I had actually thought, well, am I trans masculine? And the answer was no, I don't feel like a man. I didn't know how I fit then. I knew that I didn't quite fit into the woman box, and I knew that I definitely didn't fit into the man box. And I wasn't quite sure how to define myself. And it's only been listening to a new generation of people who find that easier to get their head around, that I've kind of gone, oh, actually, you know, I've known other young non-binary people that have been friends of mine. And as they're talking about their identity, I've been like, but that's just normal, that's how I am. And I just assume that's how everyone was. And then realizing, oh no, actually, that's probably because I'm non-binary too. That's why that feels so comfortable to me. But it's taken so many years, and it would have been great for somebody to explain it to me right up front when that book came out 15 years ago. That would have been nice. It's lovely, it is lovely to get that feedback and to have people say, no, you've always been writing trans in those books. The way that you describe sexuality has always been in between, and it's always a mixed, mixed up gender identity. So I think the queer community has definitely been the strongest supporters of my work, and I think most of my returning readers are the queer community.

Speaker 1 20:58

One other thing you do was you do give writers workshops, which I think is fantastic because I know in the queer community we've been asked quite a few times if we know any queer writer workshops, etc., because there's a lot of people who love to write. I know there is the Byron Bay writers festival on and you will be there, is that correct? Yeah, that is. Are other workshops there as well?

Speaker 14 21:22

There are workshops during the festival that we'll be on. So definitely worth checking that out. I'm hoping to work a lot more with Byron Bay next year, and there will be out-of-season workshops that that are around Byron Bay.

Speaker 1 21:35

Great, we will put that in the show notes. You will be at a Byron Bay Writers Festival.

Speaker 14 21:40

I'm doing two panels that for my own book. So I'm one of them is just a one-on-one about the Rite of Spring. So it's a conversation about the book, which I think will be a really good chance for me to dive into those themes that I've got in the book on a one-on-one. I'm also chairing a couple of panels. Um I'm chairing a book about fungi for the book Planet Fungi. And I'm a bit of a mushroom fan. And as I found out, so many non-binary people are, because like relate to to the world of mycelium where the binary is just not a thing. So that's going to be fun. And I'm also chairing a panel about reading with a bunch of writers. So I've got three writers who I'll be talking to about the art of reading. Do you mean reading out loud? No, just reading in general. So many people have lost the ability to like books have become shorter and shorter over the years because people are finding it really difficult to concentrate for long periods of time on longer work.

Speaker 1 22:35

What piece of advice would you give a young career writer that wants to give writing a goal?

Speaker 14 22:41

I think that it's really important to be true to who you are on the page. So not to try and uh write in the way that other people write, but to try and find your own unique voice and to stick to that, like really re refine that.

Speaker 1 22:59

Thank you very much for joining us, Chris. It was really a pleasure speaking to you. And we will put all the information in the show notes for how people can find out what you do and about your books and the Bayon Bay Writers Festival. Thank you so much. It was really fun actually, so thank you.

Exclusive Excerpt From Rite Of Spring

Speaker 13 23:19

She closed her eyes. The weed brushed against her chest. She had drifted into a clump of it. It danced around her, teasing her fingers, whispering at her neck. A thick rope of weed found her crotch, and she groaned with the sensation of it, tickling like a fat finger rubbing at her swollen clitoris. And yes, she let it linger there. She even lifted her hips a little, so that the touch of it fell squarely at her pleasure. And then a wave lifted her and dropped her lower in the water, and the slippery kelp was inside her, and its fingers were sucking at her pubis, her clitoris. She shut her legs tight around the seaweed. She rocked her pelvis back and forth, making the whole mess of it climb higher into her vulgar, impaling herself on it. She let her hips bob onto it and off again, felt the slippery finger sliding inside, then out. And that was when she saw it. Weed coloured, weed textured, but a swelling in the shape of a human breast, in amongst the tangle of feathery weird fronds. The shock of the sight of it filled her with excitement. Blood throbbed in her labia, her glitters felt big as a finger under the tickle of seaweed, one breast in the weedy tangle. Then a second breast. Surely she would have seen them in her textbooks, but she had never seen anything like this in the ocean before. Heavy, fleshy globes with the dark tightenings that looked like erect nipples pointing towards the stars. She felt as if the ocean was all sex, and because she was immersed in it, she was covered in sex. She was sex. Every wave was a tantalizing promise of pre-com. Every weedy tangle was genitals, and through it all the soft marshmallow of sound. She opened herself to it. She parted her legs and lifted her chest and gave herself up to it.

Speaker 2 25:23

I can start off of my child.

Queer Music Spotlight And Playlists

Speaker 1 27:44

A track that's become a full-blown protest anthem. It was nominated for Single of the Year at a 2025 Avo Terra Music Awards and even landed at number 178 on Rolling Stone Australia's list of the top 250 Australian New Zealand songs of the 21st century. Thea has just released a brand new live version of the song and it couldn't be more timely. All the details of Thea's work and link to her music are in the show notes. And don't forget to follow our Lotal Lounge Queer Artist playlists on Spotify and SoundCloud to hear more incredible music from queer artists across Australia and New Zealand.

Speaker 10 28:27

Next up, League from the Lounge with Joe Barrett.

NRLW Indigenous Round And Key Stories

Speaker 10 28:32

Hi everyone, and welcome to League from the Lounge. I'm Joe Barrett, and this is your NRLW rap. Well, we've had rounds six and seven since our last episode, and we're now heading into the final four rounds of the season, and we're really starting to get a clear picture of this competition. Indigenous Round has been a huge focus across the last two weekends, and there were some really special moments around the game because of that. So let's get into it. What's on my mind at the moment? Indigenous Round. It's been really special over round six and seven. And what I love about it is that it goes beyond simply celebrating Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture within Rugby League on the day of the game. There's the build-up before kickoff. For days and weeks, knowledge is shared about the local area. Indigenous artists are involved in Jersey design. Sometimes that includes our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander players. Artists are involved in boot painting, local kids are involved, gifts are exchanged. And there's all these opportunities to bring culture into the game in a really meaningful way. And it also creates opportunities, particularly in the NRLW, for our Indigenous women who currently play to lead their teams and share their culture in ways they probably haven't had the opportunity to before. And it goes a long way to connecting our teams really genuinely. And I think that's so important because connection within a team away from skills and training and day-to-day demands is really one of the cornerstones of so many teams succeeding on the field. We've also had to have opportunity to recognise the enormous contribution Indigenous players have made to rugby league. And some of our greatest state and national representatives have been Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander athletes. And many of these women have never really had the opportunity, particularly in their playing days, to have their culture celebrated and recognized within the sport. I think media-wise, around Indigenous Round, you see a lot of recognition about the giants of the men's game. But I still think we've got a way to go in recognizing, particularly historically, the women that have contributed. The All-Stars concept has become a very important part of changing that. And it's given Indigenous players a platform to celebrate and acknowledge their culture. But in the women's game, we've just got so many wonderful examples from the past, including Hall of Famer Katrina Fanning, one of the original standout Aboriginal women of our game, who was a Jillaroo estate representative. And as a retired player myself, I love seeing this as now become part of where our game is heading, particularly for our modern athletes who get a chance to be up in lights where they deserve. But it's not just about celebrating the players we have now, it's about recognising the women who helped build our game and celebrate their culture. I just think off the top of my head, you know, we had players like Yvonne O'Neill, Carol Jarrett, Tracy Thompson, Teresa Anderson, Kylie Pinnell was a teammate of mine in the Gillaroos. She also played for the Wallaroos. I'd love for them to be the household names, like Katasha Gale, our first Aboriginal woman who captained the Gillaroos in a way that the men are. Three things I've noticed lately. Number one, the impact of injury on a team's performance. Now, this isn't new, it's a contact sport, it happens in the men's game all the time. But with such a short competition, one or two injuries to key players can almost decimate a whole team season really quickly. And the sharks for me stand out this season. They even lost their halfback, Shante Kiriaratu, because she'd been targeted three rounds in a row because she's a halfback. And just the lineup hasn't been consistent. And I know this happens to everyone, but I've really felt for the sharks. They're a side that could realistically get their way into a grand final, and they've only had one win in seven rounds. It's quite astonishing to me, but it really speaks to the impact of injury toll. No team's immune, but I do feel for the Sharkys. Number two, officially, there are no losers now. Every team has now had at least one win, which is great to see. The Titans move into second. They've won a string of games in a row, but the Roosters have really stamped their authority in the last couple of rounds, particularly after a huge win over the Broncos. And the Broncos, two losses in a row. That would have been a pretty difficult result to predict a few weeks ago. But they've had a bit of a rough patch recently. And the Roosters-Broncos game, the grand final rematch, it lived up to the hype, and it was close, and it was really, really a battle of two great sides, but in the end, the Roosters were just too clinical, particularly in the last 20 minutes. Number three standout for me has been the support for Yasmin Meeks, the Knights captain. The moments probably stayed with me the most from the last couple of rounds was the tribute to Yasmin Meeks's mother. Yasmin had just been ruled out for the whole season with an injury, an ACL injury, which is tough enough, but incredibly sadly, her mother passed away unexpectedly. The Knights were in New Zealand to play the Warriors, and both teams came together in their opening ceremony to honour Yasmin's mum and play tribute to her family. And I just thought it was incredibly powerful. And if you get the opportunity, go back to KO or Fox and watch that opening ceremony. It honestly was just one of the greatest things I've seen because for that moment it wasn't about the Knights versus the Warriors, it wasn't about the competition. It was two teams coming together to support one of their players through a difficult time. And in doing so, honoured an incredible woman. Such a tribute, such an honour for Yaz and her family. And I think that's something really, really special about the NRLW. And full credit, the Warriors were led in that moment by Hara to Butler and the Knights for how they got around Yasmin at such a difficult time. And Yaz, our condolences go to you and your family, and we are thinking of you. My player focus for this episode is Jocelyn Kelleher from the Roosters, the first player ever to reach 300 individual points in the NRL. It's fantastic. She has spent her career surrounded by big names. The reality is she's a big name. She's been consistent and reliable for John Strange. She's been a significant player in the role of the ongoing success of the Roosters outfit. And she reached 300 points and didn't even realize she was about to reach that milestone, which speaks to her humility and her focus on her teammates rather than her individual accolades. So congratulations to Jocelyn. And now with just four rounds to go.

Lesbians And Bi+ Women Tensions

Speaker 1 35:26

Now we're joined by Amber Loomis, a proud, transgender biplas advocate and community researcher whose work digs deep into the long-standing friction between lesbians and biplass women. Where it comes from, how it's been shaped over decades, and what it means for our communities today. Amber works at the intersections of grassroots, organizing, biplas liberation and radical joy. And through the Sydney Biblass Network, they are helping build spaces where biplas people can thrive without apology. Their research traces the roots of tensions all the way back to the 70s, revealing how identity, politics, exclusion, and cultural narratives have shaped queer community dynamics and how we can imagine something better. Amber, welcome to the show. For listeners who may not know your work yet, can you share a little about your background and what drew you in researching queer history, Amber?

Speaker 8 36:21

I grew up in in Colorado in the United States. And when I moved to Australia, when I moved to Sydney, I was absolutely desperate for community. I wasn't out back at home. And so when I moved to Sydney, I thought, oh, this is a much bigger city. Surely there is something for bisexuals like me. And I actually, I couldn't find anything. And I was really, I was shocked. I was really surprised. And so I ended up reaching out to a bisexual group in Melbourne and I said, Where are all the bisexuals in Sydney? And they had said, look, there used to be lots of activity supporting bisexuals, but essentially everyone got really tired and has all stepped away. And so for me, that was a moment where I thought, look, if I'm feeling like this, I'm sure there are other people feeling like this too. And I'm sure there are other people who were desperate for community and desperate to want together, really brought me to trying to understand relationships between lesbians and bisexual women because these dynamics shape our lives. They are our lives. And so I'm really interested in this because I think we we can create change when we work together collectively. And so I'm really interested in understanding solidarity and opportunities to work together across identity labels and how we understand ourselves to create social change.

Speaker 1 37:36

That takes me straight to the next question, then. What first sparked your interest in exploring the relationship between lesbians and bisexual women specifically?

Speaker 8 37:46

To understand these dynamics, we've got to situate ourselves back in the early 1970s. I want to introduce you to a figure named Jill Johnston. Imagine it's 1971. You're in New York, so this is just a couple of years after Stonewall, and there's a public debate being held called the Dialogue on Women's Liberation, which is being moderated by known misogynist Norman Maylor. It's Jill's turn. She steps up to the microphone, and after some introductory remarks, she says, All women are lesbians except those who don't know it naturally. And instead of presenting the structured speech like the people who had come before her, she performs. Jill was at this time, her work really took a free form, free association format. She was joking. At some point, a couple of women join her on stage. They're hugging, they're kissing, they're rolling on the floor. And in all of this, Jill goes over her a lot of time, and the moderator is getting really, really agitated, the rune's getting restless, and there's even a vote in the room about whether or not Jill should be allowed to continue. Eventually she leaves the stage and doesn't come back for the rest of the event. And the reason why I think this is so significant is because what Jill does in this moment is rupture the terms of the debate, which had been set by the patriarchy. Her performance and the way that she approaches this debate, I think really situates lesbianism not just as an identity, but as a political stance. I mean, you could see this, you could watch this clip. The entire documentary of this debate is on YouTube. And I remember watching this and being like, oh, this is the kind of rich information about second wave feminism, about ideas, you know, related to gender and sexuality that I think we really need to understand so that we can then understand how we got here to where we are today. And so in my own community, talking to bisexual women, I continuously hear stories of people feeling locked out of community, people feeling like they don't have a place, people feeling like they're they've been excluded. And this having really negative implications on mental health and well-being and sense of belonging. So I do think that understanding where all of this has come from is really important to me, understanding these dynamics, seeing where movements have grown from, been pivotal in understanding my own sense of self and understanding how I fit into social movements and understanding how we relate to each other. The growing idea of lesbian separatism, what that does is create a context where bisexuality is completely excluded from the politics, from the cultural and social dynamic. And to be really clear, I'm not saying that Jill's work was the only person, you know, championing separatist politics. It was an entire movement. But her work in 1973, she published a book in 1973 called Lesbian Nation. And that really called for a complete break with men and male-dominated institutions, which then ends up framing relationships with men as a sort of collaboration with oppression or oppressors. And it's this ideology, this idea of separatism that has really significant implications on how let on how bisexual women are viewed in community. So it means that bisexual women end up being doubted or rejected or policed in queer communities. And this ripple, then, you can trace this really clearly to how bisexual women are treated in communities today. And it's this that I saw in my community organizing when I was connecting with other bisexual people, other bisexual women saying that they don't belong in, that they hear the messages that they don't belong in community. It's this link to lesbian separatism that I think really shapes that dynamic between lesbians and bisexuals today.

Speaker 1 41:55

Why a lesbian community is so exclusive of bisexual women.

Speaker 8 42:25

But then you've also got closer-to-home groups based in Melbourne called radical lesbians, and they're organizing conferences, they're bringing speakers, they're developing feminist newspapers and again really drawing on those ideas that you know men are the oppressors. And so you do have women reclaiming these spaces, but then intertwined in that is that politic of, well, if you're in a relationship with a man, you're not actually queer enough or you're not feminist enough. And that ripples down. That's not just limited to the 1970s. The flow on effect that that has throughout time is still evident today.

Speaker 1 43:06

Well, let's move into some historical concepts. When we look back historically, what were some of the earliest points of tension between lesbian and bisexual women?

Speaker 8 43:17

I talked a little bit already about Jill's work in the 1970s and this being a flashpoint for developing separatist ideology. But I do think it's important, as I said, to recognize that this ideology wasn't limited to the 70s. I have been really struck as I've gone through the archives of some material in the 90s where you could see in newspapers lesbian separatists writing in to feminist newspapers saying, I don't want to date bisexual women. Bisexual women are traitors to queer movements. Why should we be bothered by bisexual rights? Don't they have access to heterosexual privileges? And occasionally you do see bisexual women responding to that, saying, we're all in this together. And I do think there's maybe we'll talk about this a bit later, the myth of heterosexual or straight-assing relationships. But then I think you do see this kind of back and forth between bisexual women and lesbians about how bisexual women actually fit into queer movements and our validity in a movement. What is so fascinating, I've talked a little bit about the 70s, and then I've also referenced the 90s. But of course, between that, we see the devastating impact of the AIDS epidemic. I'm really interested as well, is the solidarity. I mean, lesbians and no doubt bisexual women played such a significant role in responding to that. I think that's a really interesting example of how solidarity can work together to respond to a crisis and to support community. And that kind of acting is a schism between the tension that we will see happening in the 70s and in the 90s. So I think to answer your question, some of those earliest moments we see, as I said, I think we really see it emerging in the 70s, but really ramping up again in the 90s. And you do see a grand swell of movement for bisexual communities in the 90s and into the early 2000s.

Speaker 1 45:15

I remember back going to lesbian bars and clubs, there were the lesbian spaces, and I didn't want to share it with anyone because it was bisexual. Women were not welcome at lesbian spaces back then. I think it's different today.

Speaker 8 45:28

There is definitely archival evidence. And actually, I remember finding this article. It's from Lesbians on the Loose in the 1990s. Someone had written in saying that, oh, there's this debate about the inclusion of bisexuals. I'm actually gonna go out and interview people in a lesbian bar and ask lesbian women what they think of bisexuals. They've got quotes from nine women in a lesbian bar asking about whether or not they would date bisexuals. And nine out of 12 of them had said, no, we don't want bisexuals here, we won't date them. Repeating these really damaging myths about bisexuals, saying, oh, they're greedy, they can't make up their mind. They're just pretending these notions that then have an effect on whether or not bisexuals can be in these spaces. I think you're right. I do think there has been shifts. No community is a monolith. So there are people who think this, and then there's the flip side. And you do have examples of women. I think there are about three women that they had spoken to that said, well, why not? If we love each other, if we're connected to each other. That's beautiful. I'm gonna explore that. But I think a space that's particularly interesting where you see this play at now is on dating apps. I do remember being on dating apps and you know, scrolling through, and there would be profiles that would very clearly say no bisexual women. So I just think that's that legacy of those separatist politics, the legacy of stereotypes about bisexuality. I'm trying to recall this research that I read not too long ago that looked into this in more detail and they actually surveyed lesbian attitudes. I believe this was in the US, and the vast majority of them had said that bisexuality is just a phase, or maybe most bisexual women will just realize eventually they're just lesbians or they're just straight trying to get attention. And as I said, all of these stereotypes have really damaging effects on community, and I think it's really important that we recognize that.

Speaker 1 47:35

100%. And this is exactly what we're trying to discover, you know, where this friction has come from. The relationship between the bisexual and the in the lesbian community really was shaped by venues that were hostile towards lesbians through media such as dating apps, etc. I remember that very well as well, that we're like excluding lesbians. Is there in your research that often are overlooked and are actually positive?

Speaker 8 48:04

That's such a good question because I do think we need to look towards what's working well between communities so that we could actually elevate that. One historical example that I find to be so fascinating is from 1977. And it's called the Kumbahee River Collective Statement. And it was developed by black primarily lesbians, that I think is one of the earliest political calls that describes the importance of intersectionality. And in this statement, it really clearly says that lesbian separatism does not work for our communities. We need to do to create social change is recognize that our oppression is all linked. And we need to not just acknowledge that, but actually act on that so that we can create tangible change for our communities. We need to all work together to find that commonality to actually change the systems and structures that are oppressing all of us.

Speaker 1 49:05

What are some of the most persistent misconceptions about bisexual women within the lesbian communities, you think?

Speaker 8 49:12

I would say that one of the most persistent misconceptions about bisexuals in lesbian communities is the idea that bisexual women will leave their partner for a man. And it's so significant because it then means that people either are afraid of dating bisexual people or they stigmatize bisexuality as an unstable orientation. And I think it's really important that we recognize for some people, sexuality is fluid. And for some people, sexuality can change over their lifetime, and that's fine. And when we do look at large-scale research, here in Australia, there's been a really good body of work done to understand bisexual people's mental health. And this research actually found that bisexual people in relationships that are assumed to be heterosexual actually had the worst mental health out of anyone when compared to lesbian counterparts, gay counterparts, and other bisexual folks.

Speaker 1 50:20

So if we're talking about today's landscape, for you as a bisexual woman, how has that shifted for you personally?

Speaker 8 50:27

I've seen this shift. So spaces are much more explicit about where we want everyone who is supportive in whatever way to actually be there. And this for me has meant that I don't feel so alone. I think sometimes it can be really easy or really daunting to feel like you're the only person who feels a certain way or who loves a certain way. So to be surrounded by people, regardless of their sexual orientation, to say, no, we're here for you. And you should be celebrated and loved, and you deserve dignity and you deserve respect, that has actually saved my life. And I know that it saved the lives of many other people. And so I think that is something that we shouldn't lose sight of.

Speaker 1 51:18

Last question is in your research, uh, was there a highlight or a most surprising effect that you'd like to share with the listeners?

Speaker 8 51:29

I would say that for me, the most exciting fact has been to be able to see very concretely in front of me evidence that our communities have been organizing for years and years and years. I find myself in the archives really excited about the fact that I could trace cultural narratives and I could trace social dynamics. And the reason why that's so exciting for me is because when we put ourselves back into a mainstream context that tries to erase all of those aspects about our identity, I find it so meaningful to see our sites of resistance. And so to see it so clearly in front of me in the archives is such a stark reminder that we are here and we are doing really important work and that our lives really matter. And I think that's so important for when we're thinking about relationships between lesbians and bisexuals, because if we go back to that idea of intersectionality and solidarity across movements and across identities, it reminds me of the power of working together. And that that's actually what excites me because it gives me quite a lot of hope and it gives me momentum when I could see where we've come, the progress that we've made, and then to be able to think about what's then possible for our future.

Speaker 1 52:50

That was my conversation with Amber Loomis. If you want to go deeper on the research in the history of friction between lesbians and biplass women, make sure you read Amber's full article. The link is in the show notes. And if you like to hear the entire unedited conversation, you'll find a full-length interview there as well. It's absolutely worth listening to.

Chosen Family And Coercive Control

Speaker 1 53:12

Today we are spotlighting FifthNarel, a queer supergroup that's been making serious waves across Australia and beyond. Their new EP, Chosen Family, is a powerful, deeply personal collection of songs exploring what it means to have moved through the world as a trans and queer person right now, and how community becomes a form of resistance, comfort, and joy. FUVENAL is led by Tai Blunt, a trans non-binary songwriter. The track we are about to hear, Hide You, digs into the experience of recognizing coercive control and reclaiming your own power. Before we hit play, I'm thrilled to welcome Tai from Funeral. Yeah, thanks for having me. You just released a new EP, Chosen Family. Tell me why did you choose that title?

Speaker 54:00

I guess the concept of chosen family comes up a lot in queer culture. Yeah, probably about a year ago, year and a half ago, had a bit of a light bulb moment when I recognized, in many ways, have found my people. Ben and Maddie, who have been collaborating with on this particular EP? The two of them very quickly became part of that group of people that I saw as my chosen family.

Speaker 1 54:20

We listened to one particular track later called Hate You, which is a very powerful track. I really loved listening to it. What sparked off this title and what did you go through when you wrote that song?

Speaker 54:35

The overall, I guess, darker concept of it is coming to recognize that maybe you're in a situation that is manipulative and there's some kind of power imbalance, and trying to, yeah, I guess reflect on how that happened and complex and messy that can be. I think a lot about how queer folks but trans folks specifically really hold a mirror up to society in a lot of ways. The thing that they hate, I think, is not the trans person, but is the thing that the trans person makes them see in themselves that they're not willing to wrestle with.

Speaker 1 55:05

So this new EP chosen family consists of five tracks. What is it like to produce that with a queer band?

Speaker 55:12

Some of the songs can be, I guess, read as quite depressing, but I think playing them with a bunch of people that love me, playing them to a bunch of people that love all of us collectively, yeah, it's so liberating. And I hope that people get a sense there's this community around them. And see people on stage that maybe make them think that they could go and start a band.

Speaker 1 59:24

Go give the EP a listen, support queer artists, and keep an eye on funeral. Next

Welcoming Queer Women Home From Prison

Speaker 1 59:34

up, we are joined by Tabitha Leen, a queer Aboriginal woman, formerly incarcerated writer and advocate with Sisters Inside. We talk about what it really means to come home from prison. Why the queer community should treat that homecoming with the same ritual and welcome as coming out, and the racism and violence that follow Aboriginal women inside a system and long after release. Tapida, thank you for joining the Lotal Lounge today. I read the article that you sent through a couple of weeks ago. And I must admit I'm entirely out of my comfort zone talking to you because it's not my world. And I think a lot of people, a lot of listeners will have the same feeling. Coming out of prison is a new start of something, but it's not easy. And especially as a queer person, what other hurdles are there?

Speaker 7 1:00:27

Thank you. I really wanted to write this article because I think it's an area we don't talk about a lot. I think that we celebrate these ideas of coming out because it aligns with the story we like to tell about authenticity, courage, and becoming who you truly are. But I think we don't celebrate coming out of prison because prison carries a stigma that many people still believe is actually deserved. So one homecoming is seen as something to be proud of, whereas the other is often seen as something to be ashamed of. And I think that asks us to confront who we believe is worthy of belonging, because coming out as queer has become now a story of liberation. Society and particularly queer communities have developed rituals around welcoming people into themselves and into the community. But when we come home from prison, there are very few, if no, rituals of welcome. Instead, there's suspicion, silence, or an expectation that we prove that we have changed from how we went in there. And that tells us something important, I think. I think it tells us that we see criminalized people as fundamentally different from everyone else, rather than members of our own communities who've survived another form of state violence. The state tells us that prison ends when someone's released. But for someone like myself, I know that punishment continues through ongoing discrimination, through housing discrimination, employment barriers, fractured relationships, and social rejection. And as a queer community, I think we participate in that punishment when we fail to welcome our own people home.

Speaker 1 1:02:15

You speak from your own experience. So when you came out of prison, how could you imagine in a perfect world it would have been different?

Speaker 7 1:02:24

Yeah, I should foreground this conversation. Thank you by saying that I have done time. I was two years in Adelaide Women's Prison and Adelaide Pre-Release Center, and then I spent a considerable amount of years on home detention and parole. I think we're, as a queer community, incredibly good at creating rituals. Like we've got pride, we've got coming out celebrations, engagement parties, naming ceremonies, chosen family dinners, and these rituals tell people you belong here. What I wanted to propose with this article is to get people to think why couldn't we create rituals for people coming home from prison? Imagine a small dinner with friends, a welcome home gathering, or simply saying, We're really glad that you're back. Not because prison is something to celebrate, but because survival is. And then when we come home, we often find that community operates in the same way. Whereas a real welcome could say something different. It could say you don't have to prove that you're worthy of being here, but because you already are. And that doesn't mean ignoring harm or pretending accountability for us so-called offending isn't important. It just means recognizing that belonging shouldn't be conditional and having an uncomplicated past. But imagine if the queer community became somewhere where people like myself didn't have to do that. Somewhere where I could simply say I was in prison. And the response wasn't awkward silence or fear or hugging your purse closer to your body. It was tell me about that if you want to.

Speaker 1 1:03:54

I read this in the article and I I really thought, I'm ignorant, it's not something I'm used to, but I can just see myself at a dinner party meeting you, and you said I've been in prison, I would go quiet. Like and then it would say, Is it politically correct to ask you anything about it? Like it's not something, you know, that you do on a daily basis. This whole situation is simply ignorance from people who have not been in prison or haven't been confronted with people that have come out of prison. Going back to that dinner party, this is something that somebody who's been in prison has to do for the rest of their lives. It's not just like a one-off with employment in particular, right? Are there other areas that will follow you to the rest of your life?

Speaker 7 1:04:42

Absolutely. And I want to just back to it, just like you were saying, because I think queer communities are familiar with this, right? Queer liberation has never been separate from criminalization. Our communities have been arrested, they've been entrapped, they've been surveilled, imprisoned, police raid our bars, our relationships were criminalized, trans people continue to be heavily policed today. And so I think that remembering that history should make us ask why we create distance from people who've experienced another form of state punishment. Because the reality is that for us, when we, like you said, when we come out of prison, it's something we have to come out about consistently, whether that's when we go into a health service when we first come out and they ask, where did you get that treatment? And you have to say, I got it while I was in prison. Every time you go for a job, or even if you want to speak on a lived experience panel about your experience of criminalization or domestic violence, you have to actually explain that you've got a criminal record. You don't just leave prison on the day you're released. You basically spend the rest of your life deciding when to tell people, how much to tell them, and wondering whether what they'll think they once knew about you is now the same. And you're constantly navigating that disclosure that it lives on in our criminal records, in the employment barriers, in housing discrimination. In child protection involvement and also in those calculations people make every day about whether it's safe to tell the truth about your past. So the sentence might end legally, but socially, it just follows you for decades and sometimes your whole life.

Speaker 1 1:06:16

I've got to ask you, do you think that then TV shows like Wentworth or Oranges and New Black did your quest good or bad?

Speaker 7 1:06:25

For many people, shows like Wentworth and Oranges and New Black is the closest they'll ever come to seeing a women's prison. And so, in some sense, they can humanize women in prison more than the nightly news will do. Like they show friendships, they show humor, grief, love, and survival. But television is still entertainment, right? And television needs some conflict. So prison becomes a place of constant fights, murders, gangs, and dramatic kind of portrayals. And the reality is that it's much quieter amongst the women. The violence is actually institutional. It's being strip search, being separated from your children, living under that constant surveillance, being denied health care, waiting months or years for parole decisions, living without privacy. And those harms don't make a great television, right?

Speaker 1 1:07:16

And one organization that's really has helped women in prison is Sisters Inside.

Sisters Inside And Racism Behind Bars

Speaker 1 1:07:21

It's an organization that you work with a while. Now tell us a little bit what does Sisters Inside do for women in prison and after?

Speaker 7 1:07:30

Yeah, look, Sisters Inside, particularly Debbie Kuroy, who's the CEO of Sisters Inside, who herself is also a criminalized and formerly incarcerated woman, has saved many of our lives. And Deb will probably, if she hears this, kill me for saying that. Because she wouldn't like me to characterize it like that. But it's going to make me emotional. Think about when I came out of prison, I came out with nothing. I came out to with three children who had suffered from me being in prison. I came out with no house, no job prospects. I'm largely unemployable because of my offence was against the state. So I came out with nothing. I was someone that really had no direction. And so I started writing. And then Deb found me through that writing and took me in the sisters inside wings. And what that's given me is an absolute purpose. What it's enabled me to do is put this pain into purpose, turn this pain into power, and being able to work alongside an organization that centers the voice of women who've been to prison consistently.

Speaker 1 1:08:33

Not only that you being in prison, you create your your indigenous, the disadvantage that you are experiencing. What is it like?

Speaker 7 1:08:42

Yeah, I actually appeared with one of the directors of Sisters Inside in front of the racism inquiry to the Senate recently, and I spoke I wanted them to really understand the racism that Aboriginal women face inside prison. So it's not only that we're over-surveilled and over-criminalized in community, because we are the fastest growing prison cohort in this country, Aboriginal women. And that's not because we're innately criminal. It's not because that's what rests beneath us in our bodies, but some really stark examples of racism. And I gave one of the examples when one of the wings in the Adelaide women's prison, which is a rose of cells for people who don't understand the nature of prison wings, was being decommissioned because they were rebuilding parts of it. They moved all the non-Aboriginal prisoners out and put all and scooped up 12 of us Aboriginal women and put us in there. And that's because that's where they believed we belonged, in a decommissioned wing that was crawling with rats and mice. Then by the time I made it to a lower security part of the prison, if there were fights that broke out amongst the women, what they would do is line the Aboriginal women up out front of the cells with our arms outreached in front of us, with our fists up so they could look at our fists to see if we'd be the ones that were fighting. And all of this happened while the non-Aboriginal prisoners looked on. And it's just a form of racial humiliation, right? They separate us out, assume we're the ones that are fighting, and then we have to expose ourselves in front of everyone. And these might seem like small things, but they're actually things that inform the way the officers regard you, the way the other women treat you, the way you're seen in this system. The other thing that I think, and I carry a lot of shame when I tell this story, but when I first came to prison, they take you in through admissions and you put in a little holding cell, which is no bigger than a cheap motel shower. And you're in essentially, it's just an open cage. And I was very distressed, obviously. And the officer at the desk was reading me out the prison rules. And I must have looked confused because the next minute a male officer was right in my face yelling at me, basically, Ms. Lee, don't fuck anyone. At that time, I really wasn't thinking about sex. My thoughts were on survival. And I also didn't realize at that time that it was actually the predation of the guards that we should be worried about as women prisoners. And then the next question that came from the admitting officer, and this is, I get quite shametelling this story, but I think it's important to be honest. The admitting officer said to me, Are you Aboriginal? And I paused. And I recognize that there's a huge amount of privilege in that pause because my darker skinned sisters do not get the privilege of pausing at that question. But I paused because I was scared, because I know what prisons do to Aboriginal people. They kill people. People do not make it home from prison. And so I paused and I'm like, my head's running at 100 miles per hour. And then they turned to me and said, Ms. Lee, we know you're Aboriginal. Don't fucking lie to us. Don't start your sentence off like this. So I was like, that gave me a really quick lesson in how the prison operates. But I tell that story, one, because I need to acknowledge my privilege in that moment and the shame that I hold from even entertaining that privilege, but also because the prison categorizes us right from that outset. But what we don't talk about very much is those moments of racism through every part of the system that we experience.

Speaker 1 1:11:52

I don't have a lot of hope that things are going to be better.

Speaker 7 1:11:55

I think there is no changing this system. This isn't a system that's setting out to do one thing and woefully failing. This is a system designed to operate in this way. So one of the things I think Sisters does is operates outside of that system. It doesn't seek to cut the corners of a violent system. What it does is build power within our community. So it builds power within our communities of women that we support and back each other. And an example is Debbie Kilroy set up the National Network of Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Women and Girls. And that's a network of criminalized and incarcerated and formally incarcerated women across the country. And it means we stand in solidarity with each other and we support each other. And a really good example of that is a case that was recently in Adelaide this past week where some women in prison took an officer, a prison officer to court for the sexual violence and rape against them. Now, one case was tried, which we know there's exponentially more women, but they tried this case. During that trial, the women who gave evidence, which were all criminalized women, were absolutely hounded in the court, horrendously. All their records were on trial. Like the man wasn't on trial. These women were, whether their testimony could be seen as credible because they were quote unquote murderers or quote unquote fraudsters. And then what happened from that is the media, the media storm about their testimony was about them and whether they were credible because of their past offending. Very little attention paid to this officer. Now we were absolutely shocked and thankful that the jury came back with a guilty verdict on this officer. There was a resounding silence from feminist organizations across this country. Yet if this was an uncriminalized or unimprisoned woman, people would have been up in arms that an agent of the state had raped them.

Speaker 1 1:13:42

So thank you so much, Shapira, for today's interview. It was super interesting. And I hope the listeners will go to laudel.com to check out the article.

Speaker 7 1:13:50

The only thing I would really want people to leave with is to remember that prison doesn't make someone stop being queer. One of the biggest misconceptions is that prison somehow becomes a person's entire identity. But prison doesn't make us less queer. Queer women in prison still fall in love, they still create community, they still grieve, they still dream about the future, they still imagine this life that they want to have when they leave. Our sexuality and our gender don't disappear because the state has incarcerated us. And if anything, prison sharpens the importance of connection because relationships become one of the very few ways that we can maintain our humanity. So please remember that people in prison are part of your community. And when they come home, they're just returning back to the broader community. And it's an opportunity to welcome people and hold them in that moment and say, we're really glad that you're here. And what can we do to support you? This is critical. It's critical to our survival, but also to the general humanity of our whole community.

Speaker 1 1:14:49

That was Tapita Alin in conversation with the Lottel Lounge. You can read her full article at Lottl.com. And if you like to hear the entire unedited version again, you'll find a full-length interview there as well. It's absolutely worth listening to.

Drag King Corner With Nash Hill

Speaker 1 1:15:06

I'm giving Nash Hill a quick call to find out what's next in the Drack King Corner. Let's see what she's up to on the blog this week. Hello. Ah, there she is now. Hey Nash, it's Zirke. I'm just ringing to grab a quick update from you. You've been riding the Drake King Corner on Doddle.com for the last two months, I think. And it's been fantastic to see what you covered from the history of tracking, which I thought was very fascinating, to the latest blog of How to Ready for Performance. And the one that we are going to read next week is an interview with Sexy Galaxy. I'm not surprised that you've chosen to interview a king, of course, and I think that is one of the really important things that we highlight individual kings across Australia. But Sexy Galaxy is such an icon and a frontrunner in this whole culture.

Speaker 11 1:16:02

I had to start with someone that I admire and has reached that iconic status within Australia.

Speaker 1 1:16:10

When you speak to Sexy Galaxy about having reached that status, she takes it broadly because it was such a hard road to get there.

Speaker 11 1:16:20

It was such a hard road. And when you step back and look at the bigger picture, it's just phenomenal what she has done and achieved. Yes, it started with Divinal and the Kingpens. I believe she was born before her time, but thank goodness she was. She gave so many kings around Australia so many stages to perform on. And her being humble about being open and saying, Yeah, look, you have been one of the most influential kings in Australia, really just reflects the type of person and the generosity that she holds within herself and before the community and for the art form.

Speaker 1 1:17:00

You talked to her about the beginning, what made her become a king. And she said something that you also said. She was saying that she wasn't an outgoing person, like she was shy and she was terrified to perform, but she wanted to perform so people could see her.

Speaker 11 1:17:20

Yes, I find her her personal journey to the stage really moving and really interesting and really fascinating. Because while yes, there is the similarities of sometimes we as people wanting to perform, it isn't our natural state, but there's this drive within to get us there. So yeah, it's another one of those points that I've that I've personally discovered on this journey of writing the column, is just how different aspects of a journey is similar to so many different kings. And that's what really brings the community into the forefront for me.

Speaker 1 1:17:59

I found that really fascinating, and I do enjoy your columns. And this is just a little preview for the listeners to make sure hop on the laudel.com website and look out for Nash's column, The Tracking Corner. It's full of culture and something that you don't see easily in Australian media. So, Nash, again, thank you so much for submitting that every fortnight. And I'm looking forward for many more to come. Thank you for giving dragkings a voice. Thanks, Nash. Love it as always. And if you want more from the tracking corner, make sure you check out Nash's biweekly column on Lottle.com. It's packed with king culture, performance history, community stories, and all the brilliance happening across the tracking scene. Head over to Lottl.com and catch the latest instalment.

Cabaret Love Letter To The 90s

Speaker 1 1:18:52

All right, for our final segment today, we are heading into the world of cabaret with Sherry Charleston. Cherry has a brand new show, Love Letter to the 90s, a tribute to the decade that shaped so much of Australia's queer history. It's funny, heartfelt, political, and packed with iconic 19s anthems. We'll have a quick chat with Cherry about the show, and then you'll hear her read a beautiful love letter to the 90s straight from the stage. Welcome, Cherry, to Lotal Lounge. Love Letters to the 90s. After this interview, we're going to play one of the love letters that you recorded. For our generation, we remember so well what you are referring to. Now, this show, can you tell the audience a little bit? Because it's not just that you play this in Melbourne on the 22nd, there are more shows coming up. So, what was the motivation behind it and what's the overall structure of the show?

Speaker 12 1:19:49

Okay, so the motivation was very um fluid, I have to say, but it came out of me being a burlesque performer and quite underrepresented on the burlesque stage because I'm 56 years old and I don't fit the mould of a show girl. And I was in a competition last year called Alt, which was for alternative queer performers, and I thought if I do my normal burlesque, these folks are not going to be that interested because it's not enough, and I'm kind of a bit of a novelty almost in the burlesque scene. And I thought about what is it that I have to offer a queer audience that perhaps they haven't had before or they haven't been exposed to, and that's history.

Speaker 1 1:20:37

So the audience that you performed to have a younger audience. They were a young audience, very alternative.

Speaker 12 1:20:43

I'm gonna say pretty much everyone else that was competing would be under 35, most people in their 20s, and then I'm the the token, no, not token, but you know, I'm the lone menopausal middle-aged lesbian. So I put together a 10-minute act around what it was like coming out in the 90s, and I wanted to tell stories, but then I wanted to bring some of the classic 90s anthems into it. So it was a very abridged version of what we have now, but it was just telling a few little anecdotes around the you know, the experience of being out and what that was like, and then encouraging the audience to sing along to a chorus of a song that they probably know because they're still played on dance floors now, or their parents played them. So that's kind of where it started, and then I thought this could be a really good cabaret show. So I've spent the last eight months writing it and refining it and turning it into a one or a one and a half hour experience. So there's more in-depth storytelling and it has like an arc. But also I have amazing backup singers and storytellers with me. So I've got a group of seven women who sing with me, and then we encourage the audience to sing along with us, and we make it really easy because we put all the lyrics up on a video screen. So when they don't sing, they get to see photos and videos and newspaper articles from the 90s, and when the audience does get to sing, they are spoon-fed the lyrics so they can, you know, enjoy it and have a sing or a dance if they wish.

Speaker 1 1:22:26

How was the young audience? How did they react to your first performance?

Speaker 12 1:22:30

They absolutely loved it, and part of it, part of it is because they learned a lot. So I have quite a following in particular in in Smith Street in Collingwood, which is where all the groovy people go, um, of young people who went to that show and then thought, this is really great. I loved it. So they're they're super interested. They really love the humanity of it.

Speaker 1 1:22:55

And I can only imagine, I guess, what I'm doing with Lottl, it it's a little similar about going down, not the well the memory lane, but you know, we're collecting stories, we're thinking back what it was like, or with in interviews, I constantly talk to people. Like one of our earlier interviews was of a lady who relived on the show here, how she used to answer the little personals, and how this changed how this changed her life, and so on, right? So there are a lot of those little stories, and you bring up media, for example, Vanity Fair, Katie Lang, Cindy Crawford, like there were like iconic moments we all remember. Ellen coming out on Times magazine on the front cover. You would need to add new content every five minutes. Like people will turn around and say, Sherry, have you thought of this? Like, there's another memory. There would be so many popping up.

Speaker 12 1:23:50

There are, and we've had to really contain it. I wanted to do a lot more about the nightlife and what it was like at the Melbourne Pride March, for example, the first Melbourne Pride March, which was in 1996. You know, I've got some photos that Midsummer had taken, but you know, I could spend 25 minutes talking about that amazing event of having hundreds of thousands of people marching down the street for the first time in Melbourne. So, yeah, we do get a lot of anecdotes. The other thing I get is a lot of suggestions for songs. Like, why didn't you include that one? And why didn't you include that one? And you know what? If we need to make it a two-hour show sometime in the future, maybe we can extend it.

Speaker 1 1:24:30

Young lesbians today, I wonder what day we'll have.

Speaker 12 1:24:34

I I have some exposure to that because quite a lot of my friends have queer children who are now young adults. And I think when I think back to the 90s, I think about when I I remember I was organizing the Reclaim the Night March, which is an anti-violence march, and I remember thinking in 30 years we will not have to do this. And of course, we do have to do it still. I think that uh younger folks during school have so much of an occlusive time. So I know eight-year-olds who are non-binary. I know one of my best friends, her son was having a relationship with a transgender man who hadn't had any hormones or surgery but identified as a man. So he came out to his parents as bisexual because he's like, well, this person I'm seeing is a man. So so they've got an incredible amount of acceptance, particularly within their own uh demographic. But what I do find frightening at the moment is the conservatism that is coming through the world from all the people with red hair, the politicians, apologies for anyone who has red hair, because I really do like it. But the prominent politicians like Pauline Hansen and Trump, who have such an anti-queer and anti-trans, uh, what is it? Well, it's their policy and they're removing rights. So that's what I'm worried about, is that we, I thought we were just going to go forward, and I feel like we are taking steps back. And we, you know, the law can be changed to remove rights that we had or that we have now. So that's kind of my biggest worry. But what I do see with young folks that I'm around is it is just so much easier. You can take a girl to your formal, you know, the footy boys, uh, even you know, the kids that are playing footy, which is such a you know a very straight-laced sport generally, but you know, the gay boys are there and out with the kids. So it's really different and also really lovely.

Speaker 1 1:26:48

Sherry, we will put all the information off your show and how people can contact you in our show notes and good luck with it on the 22nd of August. That is in Melbourne. Thank you for joining us on the Lotal Lounge. Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 12 1:27:11

As for me, I was just a second-year uni student trying to find my way in the world when you started. So I graduated from Melbourne Uni with a geology degree in 1992 with honours, and I got my first professional job. Not long after, I broke up with my boyfriend, and I came out to a few of my close friends and myself. It wasn't very easy being clear in the 90s. You could be legally discriminated against, harassed, fired from your job, or worse. We had no couples' rights at all, no recognition of superannuation sharing, no access to IVF or adoption or fostering kids, except for special needs kids. And the only benefit was Centralinks didn't recognise our relationship, so we could still claim. Benefits. And in Tasmania, they didn't make it legal to have homosexual activity until 1997. As a newly out and proud lesbian, my friends and I were desperate for anybody famous to be like us. And the only person in the public eye that I knew that was openly gay was Katie Lang. And she was a country singer from Vancouver who dressed in suits like a man but was definitely a woman. And she came out in 1993 and she paved the way for the rest of the world to start to accept us. There's this iconic photo shoot in Vanity Fair. Katie is lying back in a barber's chair and she is being shaved by supermodel Cindy Crawford, who is wearing a black bathing suit and heels, and I do not know who I want to be more. Cindy, Katie, or both. All I know is it is one of the sexiest fucking things I have ever seen. I was here for it. We had a bit of a uniform in the 90s, and that's so we could recognise each other in the wild outside of Brunswick Street. Short hair, jeans or pants, singlet or shirt, a vest, and if you were into makeup, red lipstick, which made you a lipstick lesbian. And we didn't have the internet, so in order to meet people, the easiest way to do it was to go out with mates, pick up on the dance floor, or join a club, or put an ad in the paper. And queer papers were our lifeline. I never had the courage to advertise, but lucky for me, there was a smorgasbord of women and clubs to choose from. Fetish dykes and nerdy dikes, dykes on bikes and sporty dykes, and Mardi Gras dancing troops. In 1998, I joined a troupe and I met both my first and second wives in that troupe. We had so many adventures in the 90s, organizing protests, lobbying for equality law change, some of which finally did happen, and being in the first Pride March in Melbourne. Finding out I wasn't the only gay in the workplace, and attending amazing dance parties and nightlife. Girl Bar, Glasshouse, Oasis, The Peel, although they never fucking let us in, Three Faces and Commercial Road was like our queer mecca. Although my workplace accepted me early on, it took my family a whole lot longer to be okay with my sexuality. And staying up all night with friends, recovering, watching beautiful sunrises. Our friends were our family when our families rejected us. By the end of U 1990s, I had moved to Seattle with my girlfriend for a year and I came back just in time for the close of the century. And I was working in IT trying to save the world from the Y2K bug, one database at a time. I had my cats, a dog, a girlfriend, and most importantly, a community. A sparkly life awaited me. Thank you, 1990s. Love, Sherry.

Next Week’s Guests And Goodbye

Speaker 1 1:31:20

And that wraps up episode 4 of the Lottl Lounge. Next week is huge. We're talking to author and actor, Zoe Terrakes, who many of you know and love as Max on the TV show Wentworth. We're also joined by Mandahala Rose, who you most likely know as E from the movie All About E. Checking in with us from New York for chat. Plus the touch shop light is return, and of course we'll have more queer music, more stories, and all your favorite segments. Episode 5 is going to be massive. See you then on the Lot Alloun.

Speaker 9 1:32:09

That's a dark plate.